0:00I'm sending you the latest episode of season 2 of horror vanguards Twin Geeks Retrospective I think you're gonna get a kick out of this one. Vera Habin Gender Discourse. Um Hoita's podcast. Los Gates. Let's go. I apologize to all seven, all seven of our German listeners, I am very sorry. Yeah, formal apologies to our German speaking audience, but this will continue. Uh, so we're joined today by the liquor guy and this is the first appearance and the most exciting thing, Kyle, how is it going? Welcome to the Twin Geeks Retrospective.
0:51If, if been I and deal Cooper. Yeah, I was walking around my, uh, uh, in Los house today. Um, as you can tell, the state of my, um, my mental state, I was walking around singing, uh, David Lynch. David Lynch. Dude, dude, dude, dude. That is how you raise the kids right. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Now I'm here to Twin Peaks. Um, I haven't gotten, I haven't had the pleasure to join for the Twin Peat Retrospective, um, but, um, I'm sure as the listeners will probably assume, um, I fucking love Twin Peaks. Um, I have for a really long time.
1:38I too went to college. So I've of course seen Twin Peaks and, um, yeah. Uh, uh, documented, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, Lynch Stan, um, Lynch Frost, uh, uh, continues winning. Um, it's just a good goddamn show. I'm more than pleased, as always, to be here. Excellent. And listeners today's episodes are going to be episode 16, arbitrary law, episode 17, dispute between brothers and episode 18, masked ball. Uh, John, do you want to do want to kick us off with some arbitrary discourse for arbitrary law? Well, uh, as, as the log lady teaches us, um, sometimes isn't the worst thing to actually find out the truth, you know, the log, as the log lady says, there is depression after an answer is given, um, maybe, maybe even a sense of loneliness that might come upon upon you.
2:41You might feel it just like deep in your soul. What, what might say, um, uh, uh, are you both lonely souls?
2:53I, I like that, uh, there was a moment of just terrible silence after I asked you both if you were lonely souls. You know, I'm gonna leave that in too, because that really, that really sums it up now, doesn't it? We have to talk about, we have to talk about deputy Andy again. We have to talk about Andy again. That, that, that, that just, just a character who fills me with such deep and abiding joy and, and almost overwhelming sadness at the same time. Yeah, people talk a lot about how Twin Peaks is some kind of like surrealist masterstroke, but it's, it's really when you get to how to do it.
3:34It's a show about father's rights. Yeah, I, um, I feel like I don't want deputy Andy to hear us use stroke in that context, because it might, it might hurt his feelings, um, of which I feel oddly protective of over, um, this man and his sperm or lack thereof. Laurel, yeah, sorry. He's in this like, this is like the point, at this point in season two, he's in this kind of, this like this sort of like three episode arc that just kind of ended up being the three that we're talking about, I think are really, um, it's kind of like, it's kind of like quintessential Andy content. Um, I don't want to jump around too much, but the, um, there's the, the, the, um, the, the deliberate cinematography, the extremely, incredibly deliberate cinematography, um, the twin peaks crew, um, and the directors of these episodes, Tim Hunter, uh, Tina Rathbone, and Dwayne Durham respectively. Um, I think kind of frame quite literally, um, the, um, it's funny, because we just spent an hour talking about a movie about, um, not being able to have sex.
4:53Um, and in this case, um, yeah, we're talking about, um, uh, uh, uh, dad rights, as the dad of the podcast, I feel like I had to, I should have something more substantive to say, but I don't know if I'm capable of having children, my kids adopted. So that will, uh, I guess that's really the, the, the, the blessing of homosexuality, um, unless you're trying to have biological children, which is fine, um, that that'll just always remain a mystery. No one will ever know. I will never know. And it's good. I don't know. I don't think I need to know that. This is the whole point of Andy's arc is like, uh, honestly, I, I mean, there's like, I mean, there's so sincerely that it's actually a really, really kind of moving exploration of this question of like, uh, what, what does it mean to love someone who is not yet? Right? That's, that's what it's about. And, uh, so if you
5:52Lewis who writes quite extensively on, on, uh, family abolition, uh, and the, the liberation of family and networks of care from the, uh, normative order of, of, uh, heteropatriarchy talks about, uh, I, I think this isn't Sophie's work. And if I'm wrong, I apologize. Uh, but, uh, they talk about the cuckold's dilemma, which is, oh, if, if it turned out that you were not, uh, the biological father, would you still love the child? Uh, and it's, uh, if a, if in, in heterosexuality, the, bro, that's a huge problem. Right? That's it. That's a, that's a, that's a kind of like, because it's so often done in these like, productionist, biologically determinist, often very controlling ways. And this whole little mini arc with Andy and ultimate fancielad, Dick Tremaine, who still has one of the best names in all of the characters, it, it's all about Andy, the kind of like genuine kind of purity of Andy's love.
6:57Uh, and I think it's, I think it's beautiful. Yeah, it just gives us a chance to see, um, in the, in the second episode too, his, his attempts at being a person are so like, ham-fisted and genuine, that you can't help but really, like it is, it is actually very touching. Um, and this idea of, like, his struggles to, like, not just reconcile, like, with this, like, I feel bad for him. Like, I almost wish he, like, you want him to have the answer to do, do the sperm's work in a more clear and concrete way, but that wouldn't do anything for the, um, the sort of like, broad, uh, like, lynching reflection on the, the, um, the family unit within the context of like, in his, in his films, you know, the sort of like, the suburban disruption often, like, it's so often the disruption is like, uh, violence, uh, sexual disruption or sexual violence. Um, and in this case, there's like, the, um, the, like, it's much more internalized. Um, it's much more of a, like, uh, softer understanding, um, of this similar problem of, like, what happens when the thing that constructs my entire subjective position is disrupted in some way. Can I still be the same person? Um, if, uh, if I don't have parentage, like, does the, does my body, um, for, require me to be a certain kind of a person?
8:53Um, and if, and if I can't fulfill the edicts that are laid out by my body in a social context, am I still that same person? Um, and, you know, we all like, I think go through that kind of a thing. Yeah. I don't know. But like, I think that's a really good point. But like, that's the lovely thing about Andy's whole arc is that he realizes that maybe he won't be the same person, but he could be like a new kind of person. Uh, yeah. And that's, that's the sort of like beautiful, terrifying thing about like, uh, you know, I, because so much of his behavior in like the first season is also tied up in like these normative, very hetero-patriarchal notions of like manliness, uh, which, which again is like often revolves around violence. Uh, but this, like, like the adorable scene of like, taking a little kid out from altered, which is like something, something out of like a
9:52Norman Rockwell painting. Um, and it's just it's all the thing that I really love is that like, at no point, uh, is Andy ever treated as like the kind of sitcom punchline, like Lynch, uh, like, Lynch and the writers and the directors like, play it also like straight and like such sincerity, that I think genuinely makes it transformative. Well, I find it really interesting about that too is like, Andy, Andy is often like, not the butt of the jerk, but the focal point of it. Yeah. We get the scene where like the repairman is trying to change the light bulb. And, and beneath him, uh, Andy is like my sperms, you know, just just being himself. But really, really, but that's kind of like unveiling and slowly unpacking here. And I find to be kind of like really quite genius about how the comedy is structured.
10:45Is that the thing that is funny about that isn't that, you know, the tension isn't coming from the fact that Andy is being exposed and therefore mocked. The tension is coming from the fact of like, I was sorry, it's not light bulb that's being changed. He's, uh, he's fixing the fire suppression system, my bad. Um, don't come at me fire suppression specialists. I'm so sorry. That was actually somewhat earnest apology, even though I spoke it as if it was ingest. So so I digest that audience. But no, like, like, it's so interestingly sincere. And like, it really, it really kind of makes us take a step back. And it's like, oh, no, we're like next to Andy experiencing his awkwardness with him.
11:27We're laughing out of that kind of nervous laughter that we get when we're kind of overwhelmed with social anxieties. And like, furthermore, like, it's also like a kind of masterful series of events, right? Because like, what is Andy's perennial problem? Right. He's, he's shooting blanks as it were. If you look up to different metaphor, um, when things get hot, his fire suppression system might not be working correctly. And what, what happens? Uh, that's the big crescendo here of this episode. It's the fire suppression system spontaneously going off when no one expected it. Because of the conversation that Andy is having with Dick Tramann about his, the potential parentage of this unborn child. And like, I find like, the God had just layered so carefully. It's so good in Twin Peaks.
12:16I think, I think what's great about Twin Peaks is like, spectatorship is a form and solidarity, right? Like, you won't, you won't. So like, if it's Andy being like this, just like adorable, deep achingly sincere clots, or it's like the uncomfortable, uh, voyeurism of being with some of like ban horn who is this just utterly monstrous ball of like, uh, libidinal, like access. Like, you, you were always just right there. Like, you were never like, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, your position as a viewer is always like a participatory within the anthropology of the town. Yes. That's actually, that's actually a really good point that dovetails us into our next bullet point nicely. And off the back of what you just said, John, I'd like you to lead us in to, to the following discussion. Yeah. Okay. About, about the participatory viewership that's happening.
13:22Hey, do you want to get really uncomfortable all of a sudden? Yeah. Do you want to, uh, let's, let's talk about feet. Uh, let's, we're going to have to do it. Ben Horn, of course, as we know, from the previous episode, has is in jail and is visited by the mysterious Mr. Tojimura, um, who reveals himself to gasp, not be Mr. Tojimura at all. Uh, and does so by revealing that it's cat, it's, it's Catherine who reveals it by kicking off a shoe and putting their bare feet, barefoot through the bars of the cell, uh, which is gratefully kissed by a groveling Ben Horn. That's a lot going on here. Yeah. My, my, my, minor, minor thing I want to flag up here that listeners will save for the final installment of today's episode. Uh, but this, this is one of the first introductions of some, some gender fuckery. What's going on inside Twin Peaks because we have Mr. Tojimura, who is
14:24Catherine presenting a very feminine foot to Ben Horn. The gender, there's gender of foot here in Twin Peaks. We need to send some detectives in to figure out what's going on down at that gender lodge. Yeah. It's a, there's a gender foot, not gender. Uh, but what do we, what, what are our thoughts on the Ben Horn, Mr. Tojimura foot scene? My, the first, the thing that jumped out to me, as always with Twin Peaks is that, um, the foot is presented like that the conversation is happening on one side, between opposite sides on the interior and the exterior of a cell, a holding cell. Um, and I think that's like, it, it's just so like, it's a nice point because I don't really have to get into it. It's really clear. That's what, that's the, um, that's the, the work of this like, this perfect television show that is like, what did we, I'm having, I'm, I just had an acid flashback to I know who killed me, um, where I talked about David Lynch, um, specifically why, why I like the, the big part of the Lynchian universe is about, um, the porous space between interior and exterior, um, and that, that, the way that that exists, um, in a physical sense and within a subjective and psychological sense. So the porous nature between the dream, um, and the waking world between the interior of the home and the ex, the chaotic exterior, the, no, the chaotic interior and the, uh, neatly presented exterior, this very, um, uh, like Freudian, um, sense of subjectivity that is about the, like, how everything is always being articulated between the, uh, drive toward the preservation of order and life and as well as the, uh, the rush toward death or toward the pre-adipole stage, um, and that's why the, like, all the characters, that's why it, it has to be always related to sexuality, um, because in the, the, the, the sexual is the, like, ultimate defining characteristic of both of those spaces, the, um, the air, the, it's, you know, the aeros and phytotos of Twin Peaks.
16:57And yeah, I just think the fact that the foot, that, that perfectly manicured foot got, came out of a large coat and was shoved almost directly into his mouth while he is on the ground. Um, you know, it reminds me of the, um, scene in Blue Velvet, right? Oh, yeah. I'm huffing, huffing nitrous and screaming mommy into someone's vagina. Um, it's, it's about the same thing. Yeah. I don't, I don't know. Fuck some, fuck some text at this point. I love it. Yeah, I, I, I found that all really, really interesting too. And there's also like, I mean, like Catherine and Ben Horn are like ruthless leaders of business. And, and, of course, I,
17:45I think it makes kind of like a really like, the thing that I want to contrast here is like, where's the perversion in this scene? The, the, the, the kind of like actual like, libidinal energy here isn't, isn't in the foot kissing, right? That, that's not, this isn't, this isn't Tarantino and from dusk to dawn, right? Where it's, it's somebody who just likes feet who is wanting to have some fun. You know, the, the thing that's driving the libidinal energy in the scene is when Catherine reveals that she's been in costume and she's done this con.
18:17You see Ben Horn turn on a dime and, and get started getting revved up, right? And, and this is, this is what the Luz and Guatari say, right? Which is like, banks and finance and bureaucracy get a lot of people turned on, right? It's, it's, it's, it's, that's where, that's where the sex is, right? It's in, it's in the, the signing of the, it's signing over of the contract. It's like the, the, the, it is, it's, it's the literalization of commodity fetishism. Yes. Yes. And yeah, of course, of course, it's being played out through Orientalism, right?
18:54Because like, what would two white business, quote unquote, business community leaders, you know, and actually be doing, right? They're, they're screwing over the east through, through economic gamesmanship and that's what they're doing here as well. Like, to them, it is a costume to them. It is something fungible and exchangeable and it's not actually a life for an identity or a culture. Yeah. That's definitely true. The yellow face serves this like as, as an additional sort of like, um, geographic layer that's been, you know, that's been imploded throughout the entire show. So it's literally the very first episode. So before you run out of time on today's episode, a few important TM plot TM things TM happen on today's episode. Let us, let us discuss the death of Leland Palmer. I know it's tempting to spend this entire episode discussing the erotic so foot fetishism as it relates to late capitalism. But we should discuss the death of one of the primary actors of the entire fucking series up to this point. We should, we should talk about the,
20:05I'm sorry, I'm sorry listeners of my foot was in my mouth during that last point. Yeah, we should unfortunately talk about like the major plot point that Lynch didn't really want to have to do, but network told him that he had to. Um, and if we want to talk about like that, that lynchian dissolving of the inside outside distinction of the, of the kind of tense interplay between eros and tannitus isn't that just all of Leland Palmer's scenes in this episode? Oh, like the dancing scene. Oh god yeah. Uh, yeah, the, um, the sort of the peak of the external aggression and the like emergence of Bob in the like, in this like, the dancing scenes, all of the dancing scenes now I get, I'm gonna get, I, in future episodes, I won't have to get as wide-angle lens because I will have talked about when peaks on the podcast before, but it's like like the dancing scenes are like almost always accompanied by some outpouring of emotion. In the case of Leland Palmer, I like he cries while dancing alone. Um, dancing is in music are communicative apparatuses. Um, think like think the, um, rocking back inside your heart, rocking back inside my heart, um, scene, when they're sitting across the, in a, uh, in a few episodes ago, when they're sitting across the table from one another and mouthing the lyrics at each other.
21:51Um, dancing takes this into like an additional dimension in which like all of the sudden the body is no longer performing its own rigidity but is being impressed upon this internal, like, like, mode of expression. So now that's why people start crying when they dance. That's why they are, like, wasn't it, isn't there a scene where he puts, there's a scene where he puts on music and he dances with Laura's photo and he cuts his hand and he puts blood on it. Um, that, uh, a while back, um, I think that all felt that, that, that sort of that kind of continuity, um, in the expression of the body I found really compelling. Um, and it's one of those scenes that, like, you're watching Twin Peaks and you're experiencing literally every single emotion. Like, it's, it can be, it's so unbelievably funny. It's very scary. Um, you feel like horror, fear, and sadness within a, like, a 15 minute period because that's what, that's what they do. They cut these scenes together, or each one has its own kind of intense internal meta arc. Um, that is like everything, again, and then it's all connected through the, um, sort of the, the over arches of melodrama and criminality and mystery and the sort of the, the procedural, like, idea and then, but, like, like, where it's completely different than anything that's ever been made is it's like the intense emotional reaction of the characters that are then like, you're like, you're watching the goofiest thing you've ever seen, followed by one of the most beautiful touching things and then one of the most strange alienating and disturbing things you've ever seen. And I think that all a lot, like,
23:49I think for what they're able to do with, uh, Leel and Palmer's death, um, and his possession was kind of like, bring all of those various feelings into conversation with one of those, because, you know, it's two in peaks. Everyone cries like all the time and everyone is trying to have sex with each other or is having sex with each other or wants to but can't or doesn't want to but doesn't want, doesn't, who doesn't want to have sex but doesn't want someone to think that they don't want to have sex so they let them down very gently and they talk about, you know, they're, they're, their, their dead ex lover or whatever. Like, everyone has this, like, sense of internal order that is constantly being disrupted by their own emotional expression. And when that, like, comes out through the body, um, which is just kind of like a big part of what the show is about.
24:44Um, I find it to be some of the most, is some of the most compelling moments in it. I think, and I think we, we shouldn't really talk about this episode, um, without talking about Ray Weiss, uh, who is just phenomenal, uh, and, and does, I think some of his best work in this episode, uh, and that, the scene of the Bob's confession followed by, uh, Leland, uh, smashing his head into a door until he dies in, uh, Cooper's arms is exactly that movement from this sense of going, oh, this is kind of goofy to, oh, this is utterly terrifying to, oh, this is one of the saddest things
25:33I've ever seen in a television show. Um, I think it's great that it uses, uh, a, I'm not sure if it's an exact quote or a paraphrase from the spetan book of the dead, um, as Cooper's comfort to Leland, as he dies. Um, and again, it's like, it's like, this grand metaphysical statement, because really, like the whole episode is about Bob and like, the nature of evil. Um, yeah, but yeah, and like, uh, Ray, incredible work. Yeah, and so I think there's something kind of doubly sad about that final sequence too, because it's, it's through that final sequence that we, we finally learned why Laura Palmer died.
26:18Yeah, right, we learned, we learned the actual concrete pinnacle reason for it. And that's Bob moves through family lines, right? He moves from parent to child. And, and, and ways that we can interpret through, through countless angles, Laura refused Bob. Laura, Laura broke the chain, but it cost her her life. And that is totally lost in the ending of the episode. And I think it's lost on purpose. Because what has Laura been this entire time is just this, this kind of vacant symbol waiting to be flooded with everyone else's meaning. Yeah. You know, she's just a picture that we do these really hard smash cuts to all the time. And here at the end of the episode, it's, it's not about Laura, it's not about her justice, it's not about anything. What's, what's Leelon Palmer's dying words? It's not, I'm sorry,
27:10Laura, it's, it's nothing like that. It's, it's, oh, I see Laura. Laura's so beautiful. It's still just Laura objectified for everyone else's needs and uses. Yeah. So even as Cooper is orchestrating this beautiful, transcendent right of death for Leelon, even as we, the audience are making the shocking revelations in an episode that is emotionally heavy and violent and bloody. Still, Laura cannot be herself. Laura can't be acknowledged for what she's done, what she struggled through, what she processed. And like, like, this is kind of the thing that like, I think very intentionally haunts twin peaks all the way through season three. Absolutely right. Also, the tormenting of Mike for esoteric information is a continued marker of the mad as a side of capitalist extraction and ableism is a quick point that I had to get out of my notes. Yeah. Should we, should we keep it going?
28:04Should we keep going and so it took a little bit about yeah, disputes between brothers. Yes, it's time for episode 17. And I think this is such the right rhythm for the follow up to the big final episode, right? Because this is, I think in a bit more of a traditional series, this is the episode where we wrap up all the loose ends. Everyone takes their bow and walks off stage and it's set up so perfectly for that. You know, oh Cooper, he's going out of town, he's going fishing. We wrap up what's going on with Audrey Horn. Everyone else puts their little hats on and they're all ready to go. And then that rug is just ripped out from underneath us in such a fantastic way. And again, we start with like a kind of slightly silly moment with the big fight between
28:52Duggy and Twain, which is like, what if a, what if a kooky small town had a really old guy who was the man who who who's getting married and his brother. It's like, it's just like, it's it's thick. And you were you you reminded that like Twin Peaks is is it is a so proper and it is this like neo-noir police procedural, but it's also a sitcom. Yeah, I loved I am obsessed with the opening sequence in this episode. I think the wake, well, the the main opening sequence is the starts with the the refusal to the it begins with the refusal to forget and the desire to experience.
29:45Which is like, which is represented through the rejection of medication. And then is further represented by a conversation between three people to you know at a wake. In a discussion of in the commentary throughout this scene is about the these are just the times when communities come to people just kind of come together. Are people are people just are is everyone invited to this or do they just show up? It's like, well, it's just kind of when community comes together. And if there's one there's one amazing sort of aspect of this scene. I loved I loved the opening spread of all of the food being brought out to the table. And my favorite part is how if you listen, you can hear two of something that happens sometimes in Twin Peaks where they play two different songs at the same time and fade them in and out of one another. So you have the sort of snappy I can't remember the titles of the songs this is private discrete rant about this being the the greatest scored television show of all time that there is literally no competition. And Angelo Badella
30:59Menti is or was may he absolutely with zero sense of humor or irony rest in peace for the amazing work that he did throughout Lynch's films as well as natural ampers Christmas vacation fun fact. There the like the idea that the the mysterious kind of silly song that directly inspired the the music that introduces the episodes of the show of which I made several when Ash asked me to make music for the Twin Peaks. Peaks retrospective I made a couple of different ones that were all in the various sort of themes of their you know there's really three main themes there's the swelling melodramatic song there's the dark and mysterious and then there's the kind of silly what are these people getting up to kind of mystery you know with the walking bass line and the snaps and whatever. And the conscious choice to play two of those at the same time in that scene I think is just absolute like mad genius and it kind of really brought the like like it's all again again subtext taken an L the the show is is putting the plainly in front of you every on the foreground there's the scene on the reflection of community coming together in the face of tragedy and behind you there's two old dickheads having a little slap fight it's so it's so good it's so it's just perfect and they keep pulling back to it throughout the episode yeah it is it is a slightly weird episode because like I remember watching I've been watching these episodes in these chunks of three and it's like you feel the kind of like emotional kind of pull between between all these affective states because the end of the previous episode is super intense and it's like this puts you through the ringer and then it's like oh yes it's time for some stick and it's genuinely perfect because it is like it's a sitcom plot you have the you have the sub plot about the two old brothers keep trying to marry the same girl uh andy is looking for his sweetheart but she's helping out with the wedding and it's like it's it's all very sticky and then suddenly you go oh yeah international drug smuggling like it with deadly seriousness is then just like slapped into the middle of this affective affective Blamanche and it's just it's just wonderful you know what else is wonderful is seeing a wayward young man in our community put on a fine suit and get started in the proud tradition of blackmailing people for business i America baby that's that's we're so back yeah that's the American dream. That's that's what you got to do. Uh, I love, I love the Bobby is like,
34:26I'm gonna be, he's like, I'm gonna be a contender and he's just so bad at it. He's like, he's just, like he's just like hanging outside the office like, with clearly no real idea what to do until the only person in that entire building with like some sense Audrey turns up. Um, it's amazing. I love, I love this kind of, this, this, this, this kind of like bubbling off. Who's, who's like, I'm gonna get us some money by doing, by doing the only thing I know how to do, which is like petty crime. Yeah, I mean, like what I think is really interesting is that in this episode we have kind of a business contrast going on and we've got like Norma who like, you know, I think it's important to kind of like wield in both hands here. The fact that these are both like business owners and to not give like the hashtag small business a pass here. But we've got like, uh, Norma and the diner and then we've got the horn family and the great northern and Bobby as someone who's inserting himself into kind of the criminal side of the great northern and like, you know, like we have, we have this kind of like really dichotomous struggle between the two of these people and like their relative positions in the community and what they're trying to accomplish. And I really do love how this episode is just kind of clowning on Bobby right left in center. Like his big aspirations of finally making it as a criminal. And like the, the, I think the irony here is that his impulse is entirely correct. That like under capitalism and its current manifestation, especially here in the
35:58United States, like, you know, like, you know, you don't, you don't make the big bucks by, by following Leo's path and becoming a small time criminal. Like you make the big bucks by following Ben Horn's path, and doing like finance, crime or whatever. That's where all the money is. Yes. By doing blackmail, rent, extraction and finance crime. That's, that's, that's American capitalism, baby. So the horror Vanguard Business Community Award goes to Bobby from Twin Peaks. Young man, and you've got a bright future ahead of you. And we at the horror Vanguard crypto excited to see who you extort down the road. And Bobby is just doing his Twin Peaks MBA. That's all it is. Oh, just just wait until
36:37Bobby learns about crypto. Shelley, I've got this idea. I just need to take our life savings really quick. We're going right to the moon. I put all the money we got from Leo's disability into Dogecoin. Anyway, how do we feel about alien abductions? I think they're neat. I support them. Thank you, aliens. Who? When you go fishing with a high ranking member of the US military, the US Air Force, who works on weird psychological warfare techniques, who hasn't wanted to be abducted by an alien? Look, sometimes you're in the woods with your boys, and you start talking about how freeing it is to whip it out in the middle of the wilderness where you can't be observed by society's judging eyes. And then the rest of the night is you saw something in the sky, and you really don't remember what else happened. And it's very important that we focus on the UFO and not talk about anything else.
37:40And yeah, one of you might go away for a couple days to kind of straighten some stuff out and do some thinking. But at the end of the day, it's a UFO, and there was nothing else going on. There's no subtext in the show. Not at all. No, also Canadians are bad.
38:00A big giant L for Canada. I will give Dale Cooper all the guns he wants. He can have every gun. I don't care. Yeah, absolutely. The Royal Canadian Mountain Police, Fat L, Oulfalmastache, this is a stay-mad Dale Cooper did nothing wrong. Dale Cooper did nothing wrong. That's exactly right. That's exact. That is my take from this entire episode. He didn't do anything wrong. Sweet innocent boy. It's completely a thing. Yeah, I will defend his right to use a dream analysis advice to self-crime until my dying breath. I will. We need to be... Yeah, let him use his mystic Tibetan arts to drive across the Canadian border and shoot drug dealers. That's fine.
39:03And again, I mean, this is kind of old hat for us as far as the discourse goes. But what I find to be really interesting about the kind of inclusion of the RCMP and these questions of drugs muggling into the drugs that have disappeared and all of that is that again, at every opportunity, the show turns its gaze away from Ben Horn and the Great Northern. It turns its gaze away from the seat of power and capital. This white supremacist core of strength is not scrutinized and it's being offloaded onto whoever else can bear the weight. We've got an FBI agent who's run a foul with the rules and so we're going to saddle him with these inquiries and investigations which will continue to avert our gaze from the crumbling patricent tristil, patricentristic force that is Ben Horn who is now in like full house of usher mode.
39:53Some excellent robes in this show, Ben Horn is Ben Horn, this guy's robe. I'm also a big fan of Kupas dressing gown. I need that in my life. But I was personally really drawn toward the fishing vest worn over the tie. I'm like I let that. Yeah. Can we all appreciate the good artistry of tying a good fishing fly? Oh absolutely. That was beautiful. That was a poetic moment as it should have been. Yeah and we need more illustrations as such using both the practical knowledge and aesthetic projections of fly fishing. I fully support this as a horror man guy is going to learn more and more about my the vicious dad's stereotyping that I am. HV is going to understand this much more fundamentally now. Listen to our next live show at a fly fishing river near you.
41:13And it will be done by 9pm because everybody will need to go home and get some sleep. That's right. I do have a little bit of a trowel of the river. What I think is really interesting about the fly fishing stuff too is like so the white and this episode we're learning about the white lodge too and the black lodge and the shadow self and the mysteries hidden in the woods and the owls. This is all coming very full force in these three episodes. One of my favorite interactions when Dale was talking to the RSAMPA guy and his supervisor in the FBI and he's like I'm starting to see off the edges of the chess board. It's all coming together for me now and I'm like that is how I've spoken at every employee review and it's why
41:58I'm a podcaster. So I relate but what's also really interesting about that is like the mystery is out there in the woods right like they're all kind of hypnotized by these unknown alien, unknowable forces in nature and yet like they turn around and like they start talking with the beauty and artistry of a fly fishing fly right and like tying it and the kind of like generational importance of those skills and passing them on and like you know like they do not know that they're already within that system. They do not know that they're already fully engaged with it. They're just turned away from aspects of it and it's like this issue of like the characters orientation to mystery that I find so intriguing here. So then are we ready to attend a masked ball? Yeah I'm ready for my mandatory evaluation to determine whether or not I took a metric ton of cocaine.
42:52I am ready to enter the the gender zone. Yeah we're going to the gender diner at gender peaks and then we're going to get sucked into the gender lodge as we attempt to solve the gender of who gendered blora gender that's today's episode. It really is. It really is. It really. So listeners this is the episode where oh my god I always forget his name, Fox Molder, David a cup. So listeners this is the episode where David Dukovny joins the cast of Twin Peaks and we first learned of this character over phone call through audio only. This is before the day is of being able to just gaze into your palm and see everyone's face as they appear now. And so we think we think we think David Dukovny's playing a character named Dennis but oh wait it's now Denise. We have a trans woman has entered the chat. Thoughts for it. Yeah. I mean, there's so much to unpack here right because obviously we have a cisgendered guy playing a trans woman which is the negative stereotype of trans women that their men and dresses and it's also a deep like fear of many trans women is to be perceived as a man and address. So we can kind of unpack that as like the first layer of discourse and it might sound like
44:16I'm rushing through it and this book is I am because there's a lot of articles on this online and it's kind of like the low hanging fruit of the discussion. But what I find to be also really interesting is that like it's much like a lot of the other stuff going on in Twin Peaks it's not played as a joke. It's played very realistically like there are a lot of characters who are uncomfortable with this right and but one of them is not Dale Cooper. Dale, Dale, fix your heart or die Cooper is very like oh okay cool and at one point he dead names Denise gets corrected and then I mean it's like oh sorry and then continues the conversation and doesn't make a big fanfare of it. There's like there's like a shocking earnestness with this depiction that I was just like very moved by on this viewing. Yeah. A apropos of absolutely nothing going on in my personal life. One of the I can't remember the line exactly but something that Cooper says is that Denise must have quite a story to tell.
45:16I'm like that's just that's just like a lovely acknowledgement right that's just like a very it's it just feels like it's such a very human human moment. So yeah yeah I completely agree obviously there is a lot of there there there there are there are reams of articles about David DeCovney but nothing but 100% support for Denise. Right and I think we like like this whole episode is baiting transgender discourse especially in 2024 because the other thing that's happening as we're going through this is so Nadine still believes she's a teenager after her head injury she still has superhuman strength and through the course of this episode like she she does what a high school girl would do and let's try and join the cheerleading team and and flirt with boys and in her quest to flirt with one of the high school athletes she she starts lifting next to him at the gym and she's doing like a leg workout and like doing like 600 pound reps which is just pressing 600 pounds. Yeah yeah just superhuman strength that she's not sweating and like the coach walks in and he's like all you losers pick up the slack and then he sees her like doing 600 pound reps and immediately he's like do you want to join the either boys or gender neutral wrestling team which this this ties in to to after this we get to see in where the the the the the wedding at the great northern and we see that
46:49Denise has caught the bouquet to which she responds with to Cooper's like oh you caught it and like Denise is like oh unfair advantage how many of those other girls were wide receivers so so we we have we have here a woman joining the men's wrestling team and a trans woman using her former football powers to do like the traditional feminine thing at a wedding and I'm just like I'm just like oh yeah this west this whole episode is designed to make a bunch of Twitter losers extremely angry yeah yes yeah I think the the idea about it not being played as a joke really at any point it's not like is not just like very ahead of its time right people hadn't even really figured out how to be more offensive when it comes to depicting trans women and people's revulsion with them but instead like see her as a human being as well as all the other people in Twin Peaks as human beings and uses it to force us in it uses like well-made characters to interrogate social formation in a very like direct in simple way that is very relatable and honestly in some ways aspirational again like obviously there's like there's you know it's a show from 1989 like it's not like like the like the the the perfect depiction that everyone is looking for and that we still don't have doesn't like doesn't exist here of course not but like if we you know we're all you know adults with brains and can see that like Dale Cooper's character in so many ways he's the he's the person he's always the person with his even in his flaws he's always the person that you want to be guiding you through the world he's the perfect character and always has been because the aspiration is in the journey like we all want to be guided through hell by somebody that we can trust and someone who we feel like understands us and the goal has to be not to that's where it gets into this all this very sort of like self-serving you know to cis-splay some things there's this very sort of self-serving attitude there's a self-serving attitude in the drive toward being the perfect ally I literally made ally jokes on the last episode but like the and you one point for them yeah well yeah I want a literal award as every ally desires in their hearts to win the trophy eggs let's see exactly and it's not about like part of that is like drawn from people's like anxious imagination on the one hand some people they retreat into the like the fantasy of cruelty right like I'm gonna get the opportunity to embarrass and humiliate a trans person one day or they take the other justice fetishizing just as condescending position which is that I'm one day going to be able to stand up and defend a trans person and everyone is going to clap for me and what is actually happens when you go outside and talk to other people and you have trans people in your life is that you're probably going to make some mistakes you're probably going to think back on things that you said at one point and cringe a little bit but then also you're going to have the moments where you had a chance to not make something about yourself and to make it about somebody else and to make it about like just trying to be like like in recognition like I know the you know the recognition of humanity as a loaded fucking this is a in part a theory podcast so that that you know we're not doing humanism or anti-humanism or non-humanism here but just very simply that like human relationships are about making mistakes and about doing your best and a lot of ways about being well intention and being well intentions doesn't mean that everyone's going to stand up and clap for you when you do things correctly it means that in your day to day life you care about somebody else and you have a willingness to just not make something about you and like because care is not about you and it's never going to be about you it means it's about not maybe into to Christian for you know some things in this world but like it's always going to be about reducing yourself in a in such a way that actually results in the care of another person and I think that's really kind of like the remarkable take is that you know like we all like I as this is man like can can only aspire to that level of humility when it comes to the people in my life who aren't cisgendered who exists across a spectrum of gender representation and identity and the like you know you just you just have to like you have to be well intentioned and you have to not make something about yourself and that's my rant that's my gender rant yeah and no I think I think
51:49I think that's like slots into the discourse of the episode perfectly right because like you know like I think there's a there's a temptation to analyze this from like a transphobic standpoint and that isn't that is not to say adopting the views of a transphobic person because fuck what a transphobic thinks but to like look at it from that angle and kind of do the negative critique of the show and kind of like saddle it with all of this baggage but I think the inverse of that is also really productive here right because like a lot of Denise's dialogue feels like it's coming straight out of egg IRL like girl I've seen those memes I like like like I know what you're processing to to a degree and like that is like like there's a shocking reality to that and I think like especially because like yeah
52:31I think you're totally right we need to focalize a little bit in this ironically maybe Cooper's perspective because like you know even if we take the kind of supposition that like you know like at the kind of like one of the worst fears right like of being just a man in a dress or whatever right like Cooper is still totally accepting is like oh cool that that must be some wild stories behind that anyway moving on Denise let's talk about the cocaine like he's so nonchalant he's so open and accepting and direct it kind of negates that space that would otherwise be dictated by transphobic discourses and allows Denise's identity as a trans woman to kind of just come forward claim that space exist there without those kind of added pressures and just kind of like naturally fold and interact with other characters in their perspectives fix your hearts right or die yep like sit sit simple as that I mean it is it is as simple as that and into some ways to it that that is complicated itself right because obviously this the show is kind of like a exploration of a sort of like folksy small town Americana but it's often an exploration that's done through Cooper and I think Lynch's own quite sincere Americanisms right like David Lynch goes out for Maltitz right there's this great this is great interview this is great series of interviews with like the the women who've worked with David Lynch talking about and Laura Dunn tells the story of when she's like 19 and she goes out on a like chemistry date with David Lynch and Kyle McLaughlin and David
54:19Lynch insists they go out for french fries and Maltitz to a diner to see if to see if they could get on and she describes it as this being this kind of like really weird moment where you go either I want nothing to do with these people or I'm gonna love them for the rest of my life like but like the point I'm getting at is like Lynch is has these kind of like folksy Americana aspects to his work and it's like in a way that they they also are imbricated in kind of often more subtle uh bigotrys that that come up right there's no black people in twin peaks yes yes except from the last two episodes which is a stark contrast to the usual.
55:09Oh we've already talked about we've already we've already talked about like how it handles uh hawk right and uh yes indigenous uh Josie and Tajimora yeah yeah but but but again like the ultimate point is fix your heart uh and I I just think that there's something kind of like very beautifully universally true about that um oh we should probably talk about yeah talk about Josie before we wrap up yes yes I think I think just uh just uh add a bit to that the end too I think one of the things that Lynch is doing is that like small town America is never just right like and the people who use the oh it's small town America that would never fly in a small town like that's always reactionary oh yeah yeah but then like when you when you actually pry it small town America no they're all twin peaks right they're they're all full of people who are like yeah you've got your reactionary racist weirdos who are underexposed to culture in the world but then you've got people who are just like independently weaving Buddhist philosophy just because they stare at trees enough in their free time like like there is enough culture and movement there like it can't be subsumed so easily and David Lynch is very good at that just like David Lynch is also very good at weaving psychosexual tension let us discuss Josie being forced to be a maid yeah uh oh god this like what happens to like it's so it escalates so quickly and gets so right like all I knew because like uh through her relationship with uh Sheriff Truman you find out a little bit about Josie's backstory uh which again is bound up with as so many of the the the kind of back stories and relationships of twin peaks are bound up in like sexual violence and exploitation um and uh Mr. Tudjimuro
57:01Katherine reveals themself and takes uh a genuinely like vicious and horrible revenge mm-hmm uh what do you all thoughts about this both of you i mean i mean because this is gender the episode like the the first thing that i i i would like trace about this is like Josie's character is very mask right like Josie is like i don't i don't know what framework we would want to apply to this like maybe foot sure like her her identity is expressed through very masculinely coded terms yeah all the power suits the slick had the power dressing yes the hair yeah mm-hmm and even even her role in business even her independence on that frontier as another one of the business crime lords of this quote unquote small american town right like she's playing in a very masculine arena so her character kind of has all these masculine signifiers baked into it and like what it what is
57:56Catherine's chosen punishment it's it's to reduce her to a live in made right it's it's to kind of cut out all of those like masculine qualities that she was otherwise freely exploring which in the episode with with gender and sports discourse is just like like this episode David David Lynch and team must have like received a vision from 2024 and and crafted this verhavi and bomb designed to detonate in our time frame basically you know Joan Chan who is just as as as all all of the women in 20x are just the most ethereal beautiful creatures like yeah Joan Chan this like god s walking among us uh is this kind of like there is this again there's this kind of like orientalism and exorcising of particularly Asian women as a stereotype um that is there are some interesting things happening with her character in relationship to specifically small town america and small town american capitalism that i think is kind of a worth thinking through particularly about the relationships between you know america in the late 80s and 90s and the big fears of like Hong Kong and Japanese business that were going to come over and you know it was supposed to be the Japanese century um what what do you about think take it away a cut oh yeah oh yeah i like that i think that um i think that actually just really sums it up the um sort of the interplay and the like everything a lot about anxiety and social formation recently because of other podcasting that if i recorded five podcasts in two days um and have talked a lot over all of that time we're talking about all kinds of different things but they all related together uh when thinking about the sort of like anxious urgences that make their way from the top very top to the very bottom of the social order in capitalism and that how the cultural like the when we get a sort of countervailing cultural expression like we pretty much always do anytime
1:00:20David Lynch decides to pick up and write anything or to pick up and film anything um i think is uh i think is actually in with all seriousness incredibly important because the anxiety of capital and of in the case of some of the things i was talking about of like imperial power um and the and especially in the american context it's always in this uh mediating tension between the exterior and the interior because america is a kind of a distinct in a lot of ways a very distinct imperial power it distinct from the your the imperial the various imperialisms the high and low imperialisms of european powers throughout the 19th and 20th century like that the like as the emergent like as an emergent power from a settler colonial context and then the basically the inheritor to the like the the the high achiever of capitalism as an inheritance from that same um or original metropole um has carried over in such a like the the reason why american culture is so rich in deeply deeply weird is because of that specific inheritance um and so as a sort of like a countervalence to this culturally the way that this is expressed in culture in the 80s and the 90s they were the sort of like oppositional imagined oppositions that were either remnants of the cold war or of the um sort of like ramping up of the conflicts like leading toward the Gulf War and all like all that kind of a thing and so you don't get like there are sort of like countervaling perspectives but there's not something that feels so like urgent in a like something that feels like it is directly bubbling up from within the american sphere and this like sort of anxiousness about Asia as an emerging capital power i think is is pretty remarkable um there's this like and then like and that doesn't even touch on the gender dynamics right there's always this sort of like implied like leftover again left over from the exact same period americans we are not interesting and not creative like it's all derived from this from the like the gifilms of the 50 of the forties in the fifties the like postwar the postwar filmic imagination of the subservient japanese woman um the like the subservient asian woman the silent and domineering asian man um and that like you know it's all production it's like it's all the fear of foreign intervention and are sort of like anxious attempts to to cohere it around this like often very mid century that's why lynch is perfect is because he understands that like or at least like in his perspective right he understands that the stuff at the root of his childhood is still so fundamental to our psyche in the united states that like he just figures out new ways to repackage it and reconstruct it introduce it into new time periods with similar aesthetics to like embrace the like fear of change at the core of his like there's a diner into impeach and the diner is incredibly fucking important and that's not by an accident right like that that is deliberate and clear and someone's like anxiousness around their like business where what they mostly care about is making a living for themselves and like yeah I'm not going to do small business apologia but in like in this case the diner it represents not just a small business but represents like one's value in the contemporary moment in the passage of time and well I guess I had more to say about that than I thought I did we will bend that we will bend that okay oh I'm sorry I literally thought I literally thought I dropped the call or something absolutely not we were just in of another outstanding Kyle take what I got scared we're gonna like oh fuck oh we have to we have to talk about the new hire here in the hv crypt I want you to both know that now I'm literally laying down
1:04:59I like the play ahead I feel like we've been we've been exhausted we have been we've been thrust through the the the the the the gender zone we have been we have gone into I've been turned I gotta turn my video back on you gotta see where I am this is peak podcasting performance uh I've been doing this you may not like it you may I'm sorry that y'all can't see this but this is what peak podcasting sounds like yeah yeah listen I imagine the coziest possible podcaster that's the sleepy time t bear is is now podcasting for Kyle
1:05:54pull the pillow over into a more comfortable position and yeah I'm like now I'm just on a bed lying um anyway well I couldn't think of a better place to wrap up our latest installment of the Twin Peaks retrospective then the greatest show ever it's the best fucking show I googled Twin Peaks merch while we were talking about it just to like I don't know I don't know why we know we know why we we all know why
1:06:25listeners uh thank you thank you listeners thank you for joining us for this episode of the Twin Peaks retrospective we will be back next week with more Twin Peaks more retrospective more gender as we discuss episode 19 the black widow episode 20 checkmate and episode 21 double play until then stay uh ducted by gender